No one likes to talk about money.
I mean we/I like to talk about it in the abstract. We can talk about it in terms of statistics (Women’s Equal Pay Day) or generalities (tax brackets) but there is a degree of taboo in talking about the nitty gritty. Because of what I do (work for a religious non-profit where I raise my entire salary through donations) many of my donors know about how much I could make and some ask how much I actually make.
Raising your own salary does a number on your soul. Some of it is messy in a “I know this is holy work” way and some of it is just plain gross. When people decline to give or stop giving to my support, I’m not supposed to take it personally but
sometimes I do. I’m supposed to trust that it’s all in God’s hands. Some days I believe that. Some days I don’t because the bills are in my hands. There are also other layers because of gender and culture. If you grew up in the Church, think of the missionary families you or your church has supported. My husband is not the one called to vocational ministry; I am. Now, who supports the family? See? Layers.
I think many of us have a complicated relationship with money and how it isn’t supposed to be everything but we know it’s something. As Christians we are taught that we can’t have two masters, but personally the interpretation and application of that gets even messier when we remember America’s sinful relationship with slavery, mastery, and money – the Church included. As the child of immigrants, money was a means to stability and safety in a way I could not fully understand as a child. I can still sense that tenuous relationship between faith and security when my parents express their disappointment in how little my job currently pays. I have to actively remind myself they aren’t disappointed with me. They are disappointed in a system that doesn’t pay me what they think I am worth.
Which has gotten me thinking about my side-gig. I am a writer and speaker, and I often get paid for those opportunities because they are also jobs. It is work to write and/or speak/guest preach/present/teach/train. More often than not, I get paid very little or am asked to do it for free.
Corporate trainers, corporate editors, pastors, teachers all get paid. It’s fairly easy with a few keystrokes to find out the salary range in the school district my children attend. I can ask friends what their churches pay their pastors. My friends who are in the hiring loop in the business sector openly share starting salary ranges.
It’s a little more awkward in the Christian speakers circuit. Yes, there is a circuit -many circuits that overlap, run parallel, etc. And it’s a business, which is weird because it is also ministry and vocation and calling and all sorts of spiritual terms that make it that much more difficult to talk about MONEY.
So, I am going to do something awkward. I’m going to talk about money. My money. (This is where I am getting ready to duck and to read/hear comments about how I should be grateful, how that is too much, how nice it would be to make that kind of money, etc. Deep breath.)
I have already heard all of those things. I am tired of being asked to do what I do for free because it’s ministry, because I am a woman and not the one supporting my family, because it’s for a good cause, or because it’s a great opportunity to increase my platform. I have been told that my going rate is too high, that I should take what is offered, that organizers were surprised I would ask for money, that I am not well-known enough to have a rate, etc.
My going rate for a day is $1500 plus travel, lodging, meals. I fly coach. I will drink instant coffee. I don’t have to check in luggage. I won’t, however, guarantee I will be wearing something with a waistband, a collar, or pockets (male sound people often don’t know what to do with me).
I have never received my going rate. And in conversations with many other WOC who do what I do, we often are grossly underpaid.
YES, I KNOW THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE GROSSLY UNDERPAID. That is not my point. I am talking about Christian POC and specifically WOC who are being asked to lead, preach, speak, train, etc. and are being asked to work, to do what our white Christian counterparts can’t do, but not being paid for it and being told to be grateful.
I have been in vocational ministry for almost 20 years. I oversaw ministry involving 300+ students at a Big Ten university. My writing credits include a book, two devotionals, a contribution to a monograph, and five years of bylines as a newspaper reporter. As a 1.5 generation Korean American immigrant now in the sandwich generation who paid her and her husband’s student loans off so that we could now take on parent loans for our oldest child my lived experience may actually more “universal” than many white speakers.
Now, I set my initial going rate several years ago at $1,000/day at the advice of a mentor – an older, very learned, seminary professor, theologian, international speaker-type. He recommended no less because it isn’t just about the talk I’m being asked to give. He reminded me that it is my lived experience, expertise, time away from my day job and family, and preparation that needs to be considered. He told me, “Kathy, you are worth at least that per day.” He told me I might not get paid that much but that I needed to decide how much my time was worth. He also was honest and told me that as a woman of color I couldn’t be “good” like most white speakers, particularly male speakers. He told me that I had to be better than good because that is the unjust reality.
I knew the part about being better than good. That message was engrained in me by my grandmother and parents. The message was always “KyoungAh, you have to be better/smarter than Americans (translation: white people) because that is the only way they will see you almost as equal.
But the dollar amount? $1,000 a day? For doing something that I actually love doing? Something I’ve been told that I am fairly good (maybe better than good) at doing?
I was speechless.
And then I started asking around and realized I am worth that. Good grief. I am worth more than that, but again a good Christian Korean American with a uterus and breasts does not talk about worth in connection to money. The message, direct and indirect, is that I should be grateful for whatever comes my way like the birds of the air. The message is that I should be grateful to speak from my unique lived experience as a Korean American woman in ministry to speak/preach/train/teach/share from that unique lens because other speakers cannot because they speak from a universal lens.
I and many, if not most, of my sisters of color who do this work are now being told by the Church our stories and perspectives are needed because they are sorely and obviously lacking but we aren’t worth the same money.
Maybe if I hired an agent my agent could do the dirty/awkward work of negotiating speakers fees. Yes, many of your beloved Christian speakers have agents and there are agencies that represent many beloved Christian speakers. Most of those speakers are white men and women. #NotAllAreWhiteChristians but many of them are, and, yes, that is changing. And, yes, I have thought about hiring an agent (so if any of you agents are out there, feel free to contact me though I have also been doing some homework).
But that isn’t the magic wand to drive change. Change will only happen when several things start happening in different spheres at the same time with enough frequency to start forcing, encouraging, inviting change particularly as the Church and Christian conferences wake up to the racial, ethnic, gender, and cultural diversity that exists in the world is rarely reflected on the big and smaller stages, platforms, podiums, and pulpits of our Christian world.
So let me offer a few questions for conference planners, folks who invite guest speakers to preach in their churches or at the church events, etc. to consider as they invite people like me, especially as they are looking to diversify the line-up:
1. What do you pay and offer to your “big name” speakers and consider what it means to pay fairly and justly? Do you negotiate honoraria the same with all of your speakers and worship leaders?
2. Consider what is the person’s expertise and experience worth because that is also what you are investing in and paying for. Many times I get asked to speak on the difficult topics of race and faith. There is a cost to being that person. If you don’t understand that, ask other POC, particularly women of color who speak, preach, lead worship and ask them.
3. If you are inviting someone to be a guest preacher: your church’s preaching teacher’s salary/# of weeks she/he preaches = a good starting point for a guest preacher.
4. Many conferences put a lot of good time, energy, and money into pulling off a “professional” event. Are you paying your professionals accordingly? If you are inviting them to be on the main stage, aren’t they all main stage speakers? Do you think of them as equally important but not pay them equally? Why not?
5. If you lack the skills to fix a leak in your home or building, would you ask a plumber to fix your bathroom for free and tell her/him to be grateful for the opportunity and chance to build her/his reputation? Then why are you asking an entire worship team to do something you can’t do for free?
And for my dear readers who are worship leaders, writers, or speakers, what other questions or suggestions do you have for those who hire, invite, and plan these conferences?
Thank you. Thank you.
I’m not a WOC, but I am reaching the point in my career when I think “Wait a second, I have fifteen years of experience…why am I getting paid only marginally more than I was as a college senior and way less than men with the same number of years of experience?”
You are welcome. I have had so many conversations in the past year alone about rates, advocating for higher rates, etc. that I just got fed up. Between that and the number of Christian conferences that lack women and racially diverse voices from the main stage…
Kathy, I figure if someone asks you to speak then they should expect you to tell them what you charge for getting the work done. If it makes them blink, they didn’t understand what they were asking you in the first place. Now they do.
Because it definitely is work even if it’s something you love. After all, I love my job but I also need to pay for a roof over my head.
I love my job, too, but as a married woman (with children) there are still a lot of deeply held beliefs about who supports the family. I have had other women tell me that it shouldn’t be a big deal for me because my husband is gainfully employed. Which emoji should I enter here?
There is definitely a learning curve for me and for conference and church event planners. I never thought to have a “rate” until I was asked about one, and then I didn’t know who to ask because it felt like asking someone about their salary. And you are correct. They blink because they think asking me to teach on race or intersectionality is the same as giving an altar call. I would hope there are more Christians able to do both, but in the past 10 years I have actually found very few can do either clearly.
I am tearing up reading this. Thank you for writing this. At last someone has articulated the struggle I’ve had. Having to negotiate my pay for a job that I love to do and am gifted at, but because it is ministry/service, it is monetarily not valued has been a tough last 20 years for me as well. I am so grateful a friend passed this along to me today. I needed this. Processing much… Thank you.
I’d love to hear more as you process. This has been such a painful but freeing journey for me. There is something about “ministry and service” that makes the conversation about money and salary/payment full of conflicting messages when it shouldn’t. Praying and processing with you!
I love this. Thank you.
You’re welcome. I’m so glad it is resonating with so many dear readers.
Thanks for having the courage to say what so many of us experience, I can’t tell you how many times I’m asked to write, speak, research, and work for free, as well as give my books away. Thank you for speaking up and may God bless you richly for paving the way for all of us to be more bold.
Well, let’s see if I regret my courage in a few weeks or months 😉
There is something to be said about being generous with our time and talents, but it seems that it is unusually the burden to bear for women and women of color in particular.
Thank you for reading and for your faithfulness! May you find boldness as well!!
Years ago I worked for an organization. I was given a place to stay, a one bedroom shared with another staff worker. About 300 square feet. NBD. I spent 60-80 hours working anyways. I was told my stipend was a matter of struggle. Someone advocated for me and raised my stipend from zero dollars to enough for groceries. Not enough for health insurance. My doctors at that point offered to follow me through email and phone communication. NBD. Meanwhile I was seeing renovations, multiple flat screen TVs being installed, more staff being hired and promoted and it FINALLY occurred to me.
Those frockers do not know to give what you do not ask for. mybad.
I work at a top ten hospital now. I applied what I was great at; coordinating, teaching, writing, taking care of people, anticipating their needs and being all around awesome. I have been trusted with more, and a few months ago given a raise and a promotion because my boss understands he got a discount for a YEAR because I had no sense.
I applaud you for being clear. And from that line, determine how generous or gracious you are led to be.
I have an idea. =)
We form a cartel. A cartel of WOC who are gifted and called to speak. We come up with an agreed-upon set of rates and mutually agree to stick with them. Since there are so few of us, the laws of supply and demand should apply. If these evangelicals orgs want for us be represented, then they should be willing to invest resources accordingly.
This will demonstrate a level of cooperation and non-competition amongst us, a willingness to work cooperatively together as a collective to stand for more equal and fair compensation for the work and expertise and unique perspective we bring.
Maybe we don’t need an “agent” who will just take 15% away of whatever we earn speaking-wise. Maybe we just need one another. =)
I love your boldness and if I saw your names as keynotes or speaking with authority on main stages, I’d want to hear what wisdom and insight you offer specifically to me as a WOC and more broadly to a church and society which is desperate to hear your distinct voices whether they realize it or not. I hate that it often costs more than it pays in so many ways. I hate to think that as you pour out you’re not being compensated accordingly but I know that’s often the case. Thank you for giving voice to this. You women are phenomenal.
Kathy, I have read and shared this so many times now, I have lost count. I’m down for what Helen is serving up. Let’s do it!
Hm that’s a good point re: guest preachers being paid what the regular preaching teacher is paid per week. I think most churches expect 12-20 hours of prep time for one sermon, though, so maybe 1/2 of one weeks’ salary? (plus travel, lodging, and meals as needed). (but yes, how much a typical preaching pastor is paid is a good starting point).
Cheering you on. So grateful for your wise voice.
Excellent insights. There are so many layers here…thank you so much for addressing this.
YES!!! Thanks for your courage and boldness. This is timely lets do it Helen.